Talk:Bharat NCAP

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India launched Bahart NCAP 22 August 2023

Union Minister of Road Transport and Highways Nitin Gadkari launched Bharat NCAP in India Silvercam (talk) 10:23, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Criticism section

Trigenibinion has added a "Criticism" section based on the following reference: https://www.team-bhp.com/news/bharat-ncap-vehicle-crash-test-program-launched
He says that the lack of secret shoppers becomes a criticism. I have 2 problems with this interpretation:

1. WP:SYNTH says that the references must explicitly support what the WP article says and that we cannot derive things. The reference does not say that there is any criticism at all.
2. From the reference itself, we have "Manufacturers will have to nominate a model to be tested under BNCAP. The base variant of the model will be selected through random sampling from the manufacturing facility or dealership. The vehicle will then be sent to the testing centre by the manufacturer." While we agree that this is not a secret shopper as used by many other NCAPs, it is not necessarily a flaw. The BNCAP officer selects a particular car from a batch of vehicles from either the manufacturer directly or from a dealer. The manufacturer is unlikely to specially prepare an entire production batch or every car sent to dealers. The manufacturer does not have control over which particular car is chosen. Therefore, there is nothing to criticise.

Also, if you are reverted twice then under WP:BRD you should not reapply your edits but should instead explain your reasoning on the talk page. Hopefully, at least one of us will see things in a different light and we can then agree instead of just reverting each other for the rest of eternity.  Stepho  talk  14:17, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The selection process could be corrupted. The manufacturer could tell the NCAP which vehicles to choose.

Buying the cars anonymously is not a guarantee. That's why I said you also need internal safeguards, but the manufacturer does not need to know a model is selected for testing until the sealed vehicles are at the facility.

Not only Euro NCAP and Latin NCAP, Global NCAP also purchases the vehicles anonymously unless they are still not available at the dealerships, as selecting from the manufacturer facilities is more problematic. Trigenibinion (talk) 15:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Your reference does not say that the manufacturer tells BNCAP which vehicle to choose. It says that BNCAP makes the selection - and sometimes from a dealership.

Even if what you say is true, you need to have a reference that explicitly says this is a criticism or that somebody has complained about possible corruption. Otherwise you are violating WP:SYNTH by using WP's voice to say something that the reference does not.  Stepho  talk  21:27, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

BNCAP theoretically selects the vehicle. If the manufacturer actually does so, it's corruption.

I'm not saying there's corruption, just pointing out that involving the manufacturer is a vulnerability, otherwise the other NCAPs would not go through the trouble. Trigenibinion (talk) 22:48, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

People in forums were already claiming that BNCAP will be corrupt. I'm not going by them, as some accuse Global NCAP and Latin NCAP (or even ANCAP because it dares test Indian vehicles sold in Australia giving them 0 stars) of corruption without basis. Trigenibinion (talk) 22:53, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not only that people have low confidence in a government-run program. If corruption does happen it will be a massive mess. These are high risk entities so a zero trust approach is needed. Trigenibinion (talk) 23:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

"BNCAP theoretically selects the vehicle. If the manufacturer actually does so, it's corruption." What you are saying here is that if BNCAP doesn't follow its own rules (by allowing the manufacturer to select) then the rules are corrupt. Well, that's true of any rule system (including every NCAP) but does not invalidate the rule system itself. You are also working on a hypothetical situation that has not been shown to be a real case scenario. Very much violating WP:SYNTH. You need a reliable reference reporting that the rules are not beng followed - not just a general concern that they might not be followed in the future.
If you have reliable references (not forums, see WP:RS) about concerns then please bring them up.  Stepho  talk  23:21, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The rules would not be corrupt but faulty. Why does each manufacturer get to nominate one model (unless they are fully paying for those tests)? Trigenibinion (talk) 13:29, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The manufacturer selecting the model is not a problem. Mots NCAPs don't test the entire range (too expensive, too time consuming). Clarifying that "model" means the type of vehicle (ie which engine, which trim level, auto/manual). It does not mean the manufacturer selects a particular vehicle.  Stepho  talk  22:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The manufacturer nominating a model prioritizes its wishes, that's why it should pay for the testing. It also means it knows in advance a model will be tested (unlike with non-self-nominated secret shopping).Trigenibinion (talk) 00:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't see this as a problem. It's not like the manufacturer will make an entire batch better and then return to the bad version after the test. And regardless, you need a reference from a reliable source that explicitly brings up this point as a direct criticism. Armchair critics like you or me are not valid sources for "facts" reported on WP.  Stepho  talk  02:23, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The BNCAP test procedures and protocols are defined in this document, the link to which is on the BNCAP website. Paragraph 4.3 onwards specifies the vehicle selection guidelines. 4.4 onwards states:

4.4 Once the Vehicle Model is selected for evaluation, for sampling purpose, the Designated Agency may appoint representatives to visit the production line of the OEM, who shall identify the test specimen as per above guidelines and shall seal the vehicles proposed for further submission to test agencies.

4.5 The Designated Agency may opt to select the cars from the dealer / sales representative of the OEM adhering to the requirements specified in Cl. 4.3.6 and 4.3.7 above.

4.7 Once the test vehicles are identified by the Designated Agency, OEM shall make necessary arrangements to dispatch (door deliver with all duties paid, if any) the same to the allocated test agency from the place of selection.

Thus, we can see that since the particular individual vehicle selected will be sealed, in principle the system is theoretically not open to manipulation. One possibility is, if in practice, the vehicle is modified in spite of the seals. On the other hand, even with secret shoppers, there could be manipulation if the secret shoppers are revealed to the manufacturer.

Denzil Simoes (talk) 06:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I said it before that anonymous shopping is not a guarantee sand that internal safeguards are needed. You don't need to produce an entire batch of modified vehicles, just corrupt representatives. You have to minimize the attack surface.Trigenibinion (talk) 12:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)